Opened 12 years ago
Last modified 8 hours ago
#6756 needs_info enhancement
Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics
Reported by: | gmhossain | Owned by: | |
---|---|---|---|
Priority: | major | Milestone: | sage-duplicate/invalid/wontfix |
Component: | symbolics | Keywords: | |
Cc: | ncalexan, mhansen, kcrisman | Merged in: | |
Authors: | Golam Mortuza Hossain | Reviewers: | Nick Alexander |
Report Upstream: | N/A | Work issues: | |
Branch: | Commit: | ||
Dependencies: | Stopgaps: |
Description (last modified by )
Implement a diff format symbolic derivative in new symbolics as the second form of abstract derivative to be avialable in Sage. See this long thread
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/ff10f99729a74eea/73308bf626ae06b3
for rationale behind it.
Implementation:
Instructions for installing these patches (sage-4.1.1)
(1) Pynac patch
(a) Get the pynac spkg
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/burcin/pynac/pynac-0.1.8.p2.spkg
(b) Apply the pynac patch implementing diff derivative from
http://www.math.unb.ca/~ghossain/diff-derivative-pynac.patch
(c) install the patched spkg in Sage.
OR if you are feeling lazy, you can directly install my patched copy of pynac from here
http://www.math.unb.ca/~ghossain/pynac-0.1.8.p2-with-diff.spkg
(2) Sage patch:
Apply the attached patch in Sage and build the changes ("sage -b"). If everything goes smoothly then you are ready for testing.
Testing:
Above, patches will provide two new user accessible functions
(a)
set_diff_derivative_level
(b)
symbolic_diff
Please see the docs for usage of these functions:
It would be good to thoroughly test the following features:
(1) Substitution of the function
(2) Derivative with or without chain rule
(3) Explicit evaluation of derivative even for some situation where chain rule has been applied and derivative is specified w.r.t. an expression
(4) Symbolic n-th derivative
(5) Typesetting
Please test diff implementation against some related bugs
as new diff implementation should avoid these.
Speed Test:
sage: f(x) = function('f',x); sage: f(x).diff(x) D[0](f)(x) sage: timeit('f(x).diff(x)') 625 loops, best of 3: 124 µs per loop sage: timeit('f(x).diff(x,100)') 125 loops, best of 3: 5.58 ms per loop sage: set_diff_derivative_level(1) sage: f(x).diff(x) diff(f(x), x, 1) sage: timeit('f(x).diff(x)') 625 loops, best of 3: 116 µs per loop sage: timeit('f(x).diff(x,100)') 625 loops, best of 3: 1.01 ms per loop sage: set_diff_derivative_level(2) sage: f(x).diff(x) diff(f(x), x, 1) sage: timeit('f(x).diff(x)') 625 loops, best of 3: 130 µs per loop sage: timeit('f(x).diff(x,100)') 125 loops, best of 3: 1.85 ms per loop
* This patch removes old "dummy_diff" from "calculus/calculus" as we now have a _real_ diff.
Attachments (3)
Change History (25)
comment:1 Changed 12 years ago by
- Description modified (diff)
- Summary changed from Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics to [with patch, needs review] Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics
Changed 12 years ago by
comment:2 follow-up: ↓ 3 Changed 12 years ago by
comment:3 in reply to: ↑ 2 Changed 12 years ago by
- Cc ncalexan added
Replying to ncalexan:
I am interested in reviewing this, but I'm not sure that I can at this time. I have a heavily modified
Sage Version 4.1.rc1, Release Date: 2009-07-07
tree that I can't really upgrade right now. I have applied this patch and installed your modified spkg. I am getting the following doctest failures
********************************************************************** File "/Users/ncalexan/sage-4.1-OSX-10.5-Intel-64bit-i386-Darwin/devel/sage-main/sage/symbolic/derivative.py", line 51: sage: f(x).diff(x) Expected: diff(f(x), x, 1) Got: D[0](f)(x)
Thanks Nick for trying it out. From this error, it seems "diff_derivative_level" flag wasn't set to value greater than "0". It could be that "set_diff_derivative_level()" failed to set it properly.
When I work from the command line, I get things like
sage: default_level=set_diff_derivative_level() sage: set_diff_derivative_level(1) sage: f(x) = function('f', x) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- TypeError: Symbolic function f takes exactly 2 arguments (1 given)
This looks really weired to me. Does it work before calling "set_diff_derivative_level()"?
I can suggest you to check three things
(1) Ensure in "symbolic/pynac.pyx" you have a line:
"cdef public int diff_derivative_level = 0"May be you can set it to "1", to enable "diff" by default.
(2) In "symbolic/all.py" you have a line:
"from derivative import symbolic_diff"(3) In "calculus/calculus.py" the following line is commented out or removed
"syms['diff'] = dummy_diff"
If these three lines are fine then it should work. Some doctests may it still fail if "set_diff_derivative_level()" isn't working properly but you can always change value in (1) manually without using it.
Please let me know if that works.
Best,
comment:4 Changed 12 years ago by
Sorry, same problems with a new 4.1.1 binary. It's possible I'm building in the wrong order (patch, failed tests, then new spkg, touch patch, rebuild) but that's two systems not working.
Changed 12 years ago by
comment:5 Changed 12 years ago by
- Reviewers set to Nick Alexander
The second patch makes this at least work for me, and fixes (maybe an ordering issue?) a test that doesn't pass on my box. I'm not done reviewing yet, but at least it works as advertised. Question: how do I pattern match on this?
comment:6 Changed 12 years ago by
Aha, very interesting, you pattern match via the symbolic_diff
object. This is pretty slick, but it irritates me that there's no way to match *any* derivative. Ie, handle diff(f(x, y), x, 2)
and diff(f(x, y), x, 1, y, 1)
uniformly for pattern matching.
comment:7 Changed 12 years ago by
I would like to evaluate various derivatives numerically, but there's no obvious way to do so.
sage: def f(v, n): print v; return v**n ....: sage: g(x, y).derivative(x, 1).subs( symbolic_diff(g(x, y), w0, w1) == f(w0, w1) ) $0 x
I would like to have my f
examine w0 and w1 to determine the correct variable, derivative, etc. But if you look, f gets evaluated with the wild card objects (it must -- that's how python works.)
So I need to match the wild cards, then calculate the function, then substitute. Just longer, that's all.
comment:8 Changed 12 years ago by
Hi Nick,
As you suggested, I moved the "set_diff_derivative_level" into pynac library. Now I just wrap the function from cython code. I will update the patches,spkg after you finish your first round of reviewing.
comment:9 Changed 12 years ago by
Patches updated to include Nick's suggestion to move "set_diff_derivative_level" into pynac library.
comment:10 follow-up: ↓ 11 Changed 12 years ago by
- Summary changed from [with patch, needs review] Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics to [with patch, needs work] Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics
It seems that applying chain rule to these inert derivatives can lead to wrong answers:
sage: f = function('f') sage: set_diff_derivative_level(2) sage: f(y,y).diff(y,1) 2*diff(f(y, y), y, 1)
Compare with the answer we get now:
sage: set_diff_derivative_level(0) sage: f(y,y).diff(y,1) D[0](f)(y, y) + D[1](f)(y, y)
This example is from p. 26 (second page) in
Wester, M. and Steinberg, S. 1983. An extension to MACSYMA's concept of functional differentiation. SIGSAM Bull. 17, 3-4 (Aug. 1983), 25-30.
You can get the article here: http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/1089338.1089343
It was the first reference on the paper mentioned by RJF in this post:
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/msg/6db333cbf8ea0a53
The paper RJF cites is
Golden, J. P. 1985. Differentiation of unknown functions in MACSYMA. SIGSAM Bull. 19, 2 (May. 1985), 19-24.
which you can get here:
http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/1089402.1089405
I suggest removing the chain rule from this implementation altogether and keeping it as an alternative inert derivative. Then the implementation can be moved within the Sage library completely as a subclass of SFunction. We should also implement conversions between the partial derivative format and this one. This page gives a recipe on how this can be done:
(The link points to the google cache since mapleprimes.com is down.)
Nick, if you give examples of how you want pattern matching on derivatives to work, we can see how to make the current implementation support these. Pattern matching capabilities of fderivative
in GiNaC definitely need to be improved. Looking at what functionality maple and MMA provides could also help.
comment:11 in reply to: ↑ 10 ; follow-up: ↓ 12 Changed 12 years ago by
- Summary changed from [with patch, needs work] Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics to [with patch, needs review] Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics
Replying to burcin:
It seems that applying chain rule to these inert derivatives can lead to wrong answers:
sage: f = function('f') sage: set_diff_derivative_level(2) sage: f(y,y).diff(y,1) 2*diff(f(y, y), y, 1)
Compare with the answer we get now:
sage: set_diff_derivative_level(0) sage: f(y,y).diff(y,1) D[0](f)(y, y) + D[1](f)(y, y)
This example is from p. 26 (second page) in ....
I suggest removing the chain rule from this implementation altogether and keeping it as an alternative inert
Thanks for the reference and I am certainly aware of this issue. If you read the docstring then you will find that I have even documented it. Furthermore, I also posted this issue for discussion to sage-devel (but without any definite conclusion)
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/c8d257981e3e3d98
Following are my comments:
(1) f(y,y) is not a genuine function of two variables. So asking for its chain rule, pretending it to be a function of multiple variables, is itself incorrect assertion.
(2) I don't think even D[] derivative output is much better in this regard, specially if you implement and allow substitution of f(y,y). For example. consider the substitution: f(y,y) = y in "D[0](f)(y, y) + D[1](f)(y, y)", then you will get the same wrong answer from D[] as from "diff".
(3) Applying chain rule is just an option in new diff implementation and certainly not the default option. However, this could be useful sometime (for example in computing Euler-Lagrange equation using functional derivative of a formal functional "S(f(y), g(y))" this feature is needed. In fact, this was the reason for implementing this feature.)
So I am sorry to differ from your opinion about removing this feature.
Then the implementation can be moved within the Sage library completely as a subclass of SFunction.
As I posted in the sage-devel, I initially implemented this within Sage as SFunction sub-class (as you suggest). Then I re-implemented this in c++ as pynac native implementation because this is 10-15 times faster than the Sage implementation.
Why do you want to have a slower implementation of diff than a faster one?
We should also implement conversions between the partial derivative format and this one. This page gives a recipe on how this can be done:
I agree that we need this conversion at least to restore compatibility of D[] with Maxima which is badly broken now because of D[] derivative. However, I don't agree that I should implement this conversion and certainly not as a pre-requirement for accepting this patch.
Given above arguments, I am reverting back to "needs review" status.
comment:12 in reply to: ↑ 11 ; follow-up: ↓ 13 Changed 12 years ago by
Replying to gmhossain:
(2) I don't think even D[] derivative output is much better in this regard, specially if you implement and allow substitution of f(y,y). For example. consider the substitution: f(y,y) = y in "D[0](f)(y, y) + D[1](f)(y, y)", then you will get the same wrong answer from D[] as from "diff".
This substitution doesn't make sense mathematically. D[0](f)(y,y) doesn't contain f(y,y), there is nothing to substitute.
Bill Page had answered this point earlier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/msg/e6ded8f5e28a5aab
This message by him in the same thread might be more helpful:
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/msg/98cc070640578f0c
Note that with these patches, the result of f(y,y).diff(y)
is twice that of the current implementation.
comment:13 in reply to: ↑ 12 ; follow-up: ↓ 14 Changed 12 years ago by
Replying to burcin:
Replying to gmhossain:
For example. consider the substitution: f(y,y) = y
This substitution doesn't make sense mathematically.
Hmm, if you bring mathematical sense into argument then does it make mathematical sense asking for applying chain rule at the first place for this case?
Note that with these patches, the result of
f(y,y).diff(y)
is twice that of the current implementation.
This is not accurate.
Above will happen only when an user wants to apply chain rule by explicitly setting diff_derivative_level to "2" or more and certainly NOT in default diff level of "1". If some user wants to use some setting that are not default then its reasonable to expect users to read the documentation to be aware of the assumptions associated with the settings.
comment:14 in reply to: ↑ 13 ; follow-up: ↓ 15 Changed 12 years ago by
Replying to gmhossain:
Replying to burcin:
Note that with these patches, the result of
f(y,y).diff(y)
is twice that of the current implementation.This is not accurate.
Above will happen only when an user wants to apply chain rule by explicitly setting diff_derivative_level to "2" or more and certainly NOT in default diff level of "1". If some user wants to use some setting that are not default then its reasonable to expect users to read the documentation to be aware of the assumptions associated with the settings.
So you agree that setting this level to 2 gives wrong results. In comment:10, I tried to say that this option that gives wrong results should be removed.
We can then merge this inert derivative with the global diff
command by adding a keyword option hold
. E.g.,
sage: f(y,y).diff(y,1) D[0](f)(y, y) + D[1](f)(y, y) sage: f(y,y).diff(y,1,hold=True) diff(f(y, y), y, 1)
comment:15 in reply to: ↑ 14 ; follow-up: ↓ 16 Changed 12 years ago by
Replying to burcin:
So you agree that setting this level to 2 gives wrong results.
Yes, but ONLY for mathematically dubious inputs. Please don't generalize, it doesn't help anyone.
I have been working on a patch that will check the arguments of the function while applying chain rule and can warn/raise appropriate errors. However, I am planning to do this in next revision and after having some feedbacks from its users.
We can then merge this inert derivative with the global
diff
command by adding a keyword optionhold
. E.g.,
Sure. However, it would be premature to merge this with global "diff" now, given its a new implementation and there could be issue which are not yet known. So I would prefer to wait couple of release cycles before considering such a move.
comment:16 in reply to: ↑ 15 Changed 12 years ago by
Replying to gmhossain:
Replying to burcin:
So you agree that setting this level to 2 gives wrong results.
Yes, but ONLY for mathematically dubious inputs. Please don't generalize, it doesn't help anyone.
What do you think is "mathematically dubious"?
Using the notation and definitions for derivatives and partial derivatives from here respectively:
http://books.google.at/books?id=e54cqeAmf4QC&pg=PA267#v=onepage
http://books.google.at/books?id=e54cqeAmf4QC&pg=PA495#v=onepage
Let U be an open subset of the complex numbers, f: UxU -> C, y in U. Then by Proposition 3.5 here
http://books.google.at/books?id=LzhkCF9ZsUgC&&pg=PA10#v=onepage
we have
\frac{df}{dy} (y,y) = D_1 f(y, y) + D_2 f(y, y).
Note that on the left hand side there is a total derivative.
In the current Sage syntax, "diff" denotes a total derivative, and "D" denotes a partial derivative. The statement above translates to the Sage notation as:
diff(f(y,y), y) = D[0](f)(y,y) + D[1](f)(y,y)
Which you can also calculate by:
sage: diff(f(y,y),y) D[0](f)(y, y) + D[1](f)(y, y)
With your patch we get:
sage: set_diff_derivative_level(2) sage: diff(f(y,y),y) 2*diff(f(y, y), y, 1) sage: latex(diff(f(y,y),y)) 2 \, {\frac{\partial}{\partial y}f\left(y, y\right)}
Can you explain what diff(f(y,y), y, 1)
or in typeset form \frac{\partial}{\partial y}f(y,y)
means?
I have been working on a patch that will check the arguments of the function while applying chain rule and can warn/raise appropriate errors. However, I am planning to do this in next revision and after having some feedbacks from its users.
Are you saying that we should merge this problematic version, and you'll fix things later? This is not how the development process works. We can review and merge the known good parts from your patch, and you can submit the rest in a different ticket later.
We can then merge this inert derivative with the global
diff
command by adding a keyword optionhold
. E.g.,Sure. However, it would be premature to merge this with global "diff" now, given its a new implementation and there could be issue which are not yet known. So I would prefer to wait couple of release cycles before considering such a move.
Should it really be merged into Sage if it's so premature? The point of the review to make sure that it doesn't have these problems.
I don't have any more time to waste on this. I suggest you either
- read the references I linked to in comment:10, and explain clearly what you do to remedy the problems discussed there or,
- remove the problematic parts from your patch.
comment:17 Changed 12 years ago by
- Cc mhansen added
I tend to agree with the points that Burcin made.
It seems a better way to implement this within GiNaC would be to have a class parallel to fderivative which just stores the (evaluated) function as well as the list of symbols. It is trivial to go from this data structure to partial derivative one.
comment:18 Changed 12 years ago by
- Report Upstream set to N/A
- Status changed from needs_review to needs_work
- Summary changed from [with patch, needs review] Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics to Implement ``diff`` format symbolic derivative in new symbolics
comment:19 Changed 11 years ago by
- Cc kcrisman added
comment:20 Changed 9 hours ago by
- Milestone set to sage-duplicate/invalid/wontfix
- Status changed from needs_work to needs_review
We have this now. Close?
sage: var('x,y,z') (x, y, z) sage: function('f') f sage: f(x,y,z).diff(x,z,y,z) diff(f(x, y, z), x, y, z, z)
comment:21 Changed 8 hours ago by
It's hard to tell exactly the scope of this ticket, but from the thread, it seems like one of the primary things wanted was a way to represent
sage: f(g(x)).diff(x) diff(f(g(x)), x)
instead of what's in Sage now:
sage: f(g(x)).diff(x) D[0](f)(g(x))*diff(g(x), x)
comment:22 Changed 8 hours ago by
- Status changed from needs_review to needs_info
I think Mike has it correct.
(Though this ticket is so old, and involved an unresolved discussion, so that it could conceivably be helpful to start over.)
I am interested in reviewing this, but I'm not sure that I can at this time. I have a heavily modified
Sage Version 4.1.rc1, Release Date: 2009-07-07
tree that I can't really upgrade right now. I have applied this patch and installed your modified spkg. I am getting the following doctest failuresWhen I work from the command line, I get things like
So there must be some calculus or symbolic patches that I'm missing. Any suggestions?